Where do you think the Indians would be this year if Juan and Robbie had stayed...

[Alex]

I think the situation was too wierd to keep these guys. I really feel Juan and Robbie were king of the mountain, but the mountain wasn't getting any bigger to accomodate a true World Series caliber team.

Juan petered out the final 10 games of the season, and it carried over into the playoffs, Robbie just out and out lost game 5 for us against Seattle.

Neither player is a true "leader" in my opinion. I love their production on the field, and that is missed, but would their production have remained at the same level as last year if we had committed to them for this season and next season?

[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">posted by Alex
Juan petered out the final 10 games of the season, and it carried over into the playoffs
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What??

Here's Juan's stats from the Seattle series;
AB- 23
Hits- 8
Runs- 4
2b- 3
HR- 2
RBI- 5
Bat Ave- .348
Slg Pct- .739

I'm not sure what else he could have been expected to do? Pitch a game?

[Alex]

Was his production spread out over the five games?

I still think he hurt the team by not playing the last 10 days of the season.

[NYC JewBoy]

With those two, the Tribe would be in 1st place, the fans would be talking playoff and WS matchups and all would be right with the world. You know, how it's been for the past 7 years. Instead we can debate who is worse Gutierrez, Fryman, or Nagy.

[the teacher]

NYCJB you defenestrate your own credibility with statements like that. Shapiro appears to have made exactly the right call on these two: Gonzalez has been injured, as expected, and has 4 HR's and 15 RBI's; Alomar appears to be over the hill and is hitting all of .267.

How do these performances put us in first place?

[Alex]

I think both Gonzo and Robbie would have needed an attitude adjustment to come back and play well again.

[NYC JewBoy]

What attitude adjustment was needed? The Tribe won games b/c of those two players. They were not the problems on this team. Shapiro kept the so called "team players" around and it has produced the current mess . Winning a WS is predicated on stocking a roster with talented players. Mantle was a drunk, Reggie Jackson was incredibly arrogant, Steve Carlton was paranoid, Barry Bonds is hated by teamates. Who cares? These players are special talents that are generally irreplaceable, and a team is hurt when these players leave. I would rather have the malcontents, egomaniacs, and psychopaths the Tribe used to have that Fryman, Burks, Lawton, and Charles Nagy. They may be nice people, but they ain't winning games.

[viper123]

Teacher you make a bad assumption in that Gonzo would have been hurt over here too. You have no clue how that might have turned out, especially when you consider the money we saved on signing Gonzo for two years went to Guitterez and Lawton, two guys who can't hit Colon's weight (Actually less than .245). Alomar switched leagues and is starting to raise his batting average, he is hardly over the hill, plus .267 puts him as the third best hitter on this team right now, plus defense and speed. Those two players put us in a better place than now and talk about trading for maybe another bat, not a frigging prospect that might never make it. We would probably be in first place

[The RotoTribe]

I agree with Viper. But I think everyone has left something out: Lofton. Lofton is still better than any of the center fielders the Indians have now. Sure, they were going to commit to Bradley, but he's not proven. They could have signed Lofton and kept Bradley. Signing Brady Anderson was dumb--well the buyout was dumb anyhow.

I don't have a problem with the Tribe rebuilding. But don't try to sell competiveness at the same time. The only team I know of that does that well is Oakland. If they are going to rebuild, don't sign anyone big. The pitching is okay (if you include some of the prospects). I think they can trade Finley for two prospects and Thome for two prospects. Go ahead and let them go. I am not in favor of trading Colon because he can play next year. If he fails to sign with the Tribe next year, the Tribe will get a good draft choice. If the Tribe got say four prospects that can hit, then combined with the young pitching, they will have a bright future. The problem is Shapiro doesn't seem to know prospects.

[The RotoTribe]

I agree with Viper. But I think everyone has left something out: Lofton. Lofton is still better than any of the center fielders the Indians have now. Sure, they were going to commit to Bradley, but he's not proven. They could have signed Lofton and kept Bradley. Signing Brady Anderson was dumb--well the buyout was dumb anyhow.

I don't have a problem with the Tribe rebuilding. But don't try to sell competiveness at the same time. The only team I know of that does that well is Oakland. If they are going to rebuild, don't sign anyone big. The pitching is okay (if you include some of the prospects). I think they can trade Finley for two prospects and Thome for two prospects. Go ahead and let them go. I am not in favor of trading Colon because he can play next year. If he fails to sign with the Tribe next year, the Tribe will get a good draft choice. If the Tribe got say four prospects that can hit, then combined with the young pitching, they will have a bright future. The problem is Shapiro doesn't seem to know prospects.